Philosophical Channel on Undernet


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[12:09] <Manapatra> what symbols mean in a computer is defined by how it is organized to process them, and the context in which it uses those symbols - it's relationships to other machines, say, or an environment
[12:09] <JohnGuru> that's blatant structuralism, Manapatra
[12:09] <JohnGuru> blatant. Glaring.
[12:09] <Manapatra> John, so? Then I'm a structuralist
[12:09] <JohnGuru> and I can't believe you're serious :)
[12:09] * Manapatra puts his best serious face on
[12:09] <JohnGuru> lol
[12:10] <NooProcess> x += 2; //add 2 to x
[12:10] <Manapatra> John, what symbols mean in a human, is defined in the same way
[12:10] <^Holden^> JohnGuru—
[12:10] <JohnGuru> Noo, yes, that's documentation, but it's so low-level that it's not very helpful. What we want to know is WHY you want to add 2 to x.
[12:10] <Manapatra> without that immersion in webs of association, there's no meaning. I'm basically rejecting Seare's Original Intentionality, here
[12:10] <NooProcess> oh
[12:10] <JohnGuru> Holden?
[12:11] <Marcuse> Holden wants to apologize?
[12:12] <Marcuse> kidding
[12:12] <Manapatra> John, what is "structuralism", to you?
[12:13] <JohnGuru> well, time for me to call it a day
[12:13] <Manapatra> I mean, how would you define it
[12:13] <JohnGuru> Manapatra, structuralism is the belief that meaning is to be found in the structure of things, or that structure defines, limits, controls what can be said
[12:13] <Manapatra> John, yes, that's my view
[12:13] <Manapatra> right
[12:13] <Manapatra> see you next time :)
[12:13] <JohnGuru> that's a pre-postmodernist type of position, characteristic of marxist analysis


[10:32] <Vortext-afk> I am not entirely finished yet, Convoluse, but your what you have argued about transcendence is quite interesting. It seems to me, at leat at this stage, as though your argument is taking pains to 'locate' the 'place' of transcendence and to, in this, explore various difficulties not immediately admitted in banal language.
[10:33] <Convoluse> yes, the place is difficult to locate, and i address this in the subsequent parts
[10:33] <Convoluse> but this is because transcendence has no "place"
[10:34] <Convoluse> however, transcendence must have a "place", and this place is always moving, as transcendence is either an instant or a constant event
[10:35] <Vortext-afk> i am not sure Levinas isn't discussing something similar (I haven't read enough of him in this area to be any more certain) in the his idea of 'otherwise-than-being'
[10:35] <Convoluse> hmm…
[10:35] <Vortext-afk> which is important, of course, in derrida's critiques of the metaphysics of presence
[10:35] <Convoluse> the authors you mention are nominally connected to the subject matter, but i can't say i know more about them, save for that
[10:36] <Convoluse> otherwise-than-being..
[10:36] <Convoluse> this sounds like a certain stage within the transcendence itself
[10:36] <Vortext-afk> i don't mean to mark out 'your meaning' by mentioning them… but this is how i try to relate to your writing, or the sorts of associations that come up
[10:37] <Convoluse> hmm…
[10:37] <Vortext-afk> i wish i could do more with unpacking that term of levinas, but it is on the fringe of what i have read, really
[10:37] <Convoluse> well, you seem to mention proper terms that do indeed relate to it..
[10:37] <Vortext-afk> also, what you have written reminds me of something i wrote a few weeks back, in channel, about love
[10:37] <Vortext-afk> which i said is not meant in the word, love
[10:37] <Convoluse> otherwise-than-being seems to be the relation of the perception to the object prior to transcendence
[10:37] <Vortext-afk> but rather, whose essence is in repetition
[10:38] <Vortext-afk> and the moving figure of that repetition
[10:38] <Convoluse> renewal?
[10:38] <Vortext-afk> that 'moving figure' reminds me also of your transcendence, though… i haven't finished your post AND, i've only read your argument once
[10:38] <Vortext-afk> yes, repetition in the sense of renewal
[10:38] <Vortext-afk> i am thinking specifically of kierkegaards sense of repetition when he writes as anti-climactus
[10:39] <Convoluse> the concept of renewal itself is very difficult.. i am just introducing it inside the text in a (hopefully) easy format
[10:39] <Vortext-afk> oh, i am not sure what you mean by renewal then… let me rephrase… by 'repetition' in this case, i mean how this word 'repetition' is being restated
[10:39] <Convoluse> not familiar with the concept of anti-climactus, but if it's similar to anti-climax, then yes, the renewal is precisely that
[10:39] <Vortext-afk> we can see the word is several places on this page of chat
[10:40] <Vortext-afk> we can't find the meaning of the term without, i would argue, tracing something like a 'moving figure'
[10:40] <Vortext-afk> a figure around 'repetition' as it moves through this page, and in and out of different relationships of language, in and out of different statements, sentences, etc
[10:41] <Convoluse> precisely, but that is only renewal as it is seen from without
[10:41] <Convoluse> my aim is to discuss renewal as it is from within
[10:41] <Convoluse> i.e. the reason for the motion itself.. the reason for the repition
[10:42] <Vortext-afk> hmmm, yes
[10:42] <Vortext-afk> the call to which each itteration is a response?
[10:42] <Convoluse> yes.. but an inherent response
[10:42] <Convoluse> in other words, not a dialectic
[10:42] <Convoluse> i mean dialogue
[10:43] <Convoluse> dialectic is precisely that, in my opinion, i.e. inherent response
[10:43] <Vortext-afk> i see, yes, and not a respoonse to a call that is a specific statement
[10:43] <Convoluse> yes
[10:43] <Vortext-afk> a response, in a sense, to the unspoken possibility of saying
[10:43] <Convoluse> the object responds to the unspoken possibility of it itself being said
[10:44] <Convoluse> since it cannot be said
[10:44] <Convoluse> the response is always to evade it being mentioned, but the evasion and the mention are not two moments, they are the same
[10:44] <Vortext-afk> it reveals itself in what is spoken towards, but never 'hit'… ie, through our failure of language, through hamartia
[10:44] <Convoluse> well, depends which level, really
[10:45] <Vortext-afk> 'it' reveals itself through the tragedy of expression, we could say
[10:45] <Convoluse> rather, 'it' never reveals itself
[10:45] <Convoluse> because there is no 'it'
[10:45] <Convoluse> but this really depends, there are two forms of renewal
[10:45] <Vortext-afk> (which is: that whatever we mean to speak towards and respond to in our saying remains unspeakable)
[10:45] <Vortext-afk> right, 'it' is a place holder, in this case, for what can't be held of positioned
[10:46] <Vortext-afk> a place holder for a non-place
[10:46] <Convoluse> hmm.. i like that
[10:46] <Vortext-afk> a cipher for a gap?
[10:46] <Vortext-afk> a scribble over a crack?
[10:46] <Convoluse> cipher over a gap, if you wish
[10:46] <Convoluse> scribble over a crack is too suggestive
[10:46] <Vortext-afk> heh
[10:46] <Convoluse> it is too extrinsic
[10:47] <Vortext-afk> yes, and it implies something like a body or a wall
[10:47] <Vortext-afk> and the body and the wall are the scribble
[10:47] <Vortext-afk> not the crack
[10:47] <Convoluse> there are two levels of renewal, one is "Want-Desire and Returning", the other is "Essential"
[10:48] <Convoluse> Ratzu VeShuv and Atzmit
[10:48] <Vortext-afk> the essential becomes more available when there is some interuption of the want-desire/returning cycle
[10:48] <Convoluse> indeed
[10:48] <Convoluse> but how did you figure?
[10:48] <Vortext-afk> when the coffee pot doesn't work, it becomes more available in it's essence which is covered over, for the most part, in our more habitual relationship with it as a means to coffee
[10:49] <Vortext-afk> it's mechanism reveals itself in this form of inspection
[10:49] <Vortext-afk> it probably needs to be run through with vinegar
[10:49] <Convoluse> and here is transcendence… that the essence will become available when the coffee pot will work
[10:49] <Convoluse> since what you are calling essential is only a higher level of Want-Desire and Returning
[10:50] <Vortext-afk> ah yes, but… why look when there is no question regarding the matter of getting a coffee?
[10:50] <Convoluse> the correct translation would be "Want-Desire-Running and Returning"
[10:50] <Vortext-afk> indeed, that response is in a sense superfluous, that ontological response
[10:50] <Vortext-afk> which superfluous effort i also would identify with philosophy
[10:51] <Convoluse> it is within itself superfluous because it is mediated by negation
[10:51] <Convoluse> True essence is also mediation, but without negation
[10:52] <Vortext-afk> ah, so the essential isn't revealed in an interuption of the 'want-desire-running and returning' but rather is the cofee pot, working, but now accompanied by a question (how, by what means, etc) that leads to a mode of inspection that asks without reason beyond this asking (not about being deprived one's coffee) but rather in response to a more fundamental calling?
[10:53] <Convoluse> yes..
[10:53] <Vortext-afk> aha, there's the place without a place in it's absence of reason, now
[10:53] <Convoluse> well, i need to go..
[10:53] <Vortext-afk> a discursive out of placeness
[10:53] <Vortext-afk> in that superfluity
[10:53] <Vortext-afk> ok
[10:53] <Vortext-afk> later Convoluse


[08:12] <JohnGuru> the greek nobleman stands at his border, looking at the source of the slaves he relies on, and says "bar bar bar" mocking their simplicity
[08:12] <RevBrown> What's wrong with the Greek legacy?
[08:12] <JohnGuru> RevBrown, it can only subsist on the enslavement of an inferior culture.
[08:13] <RevBrown> JohnGuru, hmm. Maybe I'm thinking of a different sort of legacy
[08:14] <JohnGuru> RevBrown, probably not. Someone once pointed out to me that the beauty of 18th century culture, from Mozart to Beethoven, rested squarely on the richness of the feudal nobles, who used their economic system to condense the otherwise thinly spread walth of the era… too thinly spread to support any advanced culture without that focusing factor.
[08:15] <JohnGuru> RevBrown, I suppose there's a possibility that we've escaped the need to enslave people in order to sustain the heights of civilization. But some feel we haven't.


  • Local main slain in altercation over definition of abstraction. No useful definition emerges.
  • Eloi's fists brutally assaulted by channel's face.


  • Rorty,Searle,Federal/local education,Bollywood,uncharged particles,Cornell West,Ted Kazinsky,autism & crime,genetic code,Clauswitz,Rome vs Carthage
  • Hannibal's lost Opportunity,Empire vs Trade,land vs industry,What Makes Karl Run?,anglo/french influence on USA,The Enlightenment,Napoleon,Dubai,Brazil
  • [06:50] <Hiragana> eek

Viva AmeliaEarhrt

[03:18] <Gr3yWOlf> .time london uk
[03:18] <AmeliaEarhrt> It's 11:19 AM GMT in London, United Kingdom
[03:18] <antik2> who cares about darwin?
[03:18] <Gr3yWOlf> .wz darwin au
[03:18] <AmeliaEarhrt> Darwin, Northern Territory — 8:49 PM CST Updated: 8:30 PM CST
[03:18] <AmeliaEarhrt> Temp: 81°F/27°C Heat Index: 85°F/29°C Humidity: 79%
[03:18] <AmeliaEarhrt> Conditions: Clear Wind: Calm
[03:18] <AmeliaEarhrt> The moon is Waxing Crescent, 45% of moon illuminated.
[03:21] <Gr3yWOlf> .sun london uk
[03:21] <AmeliaEarhrt> London, United Kingdom — 11:22 AM GMT Updated: 11:22 AM GMT
[03:21] <AmeliaEarhrt> Sunrise: 7:22 AM GMT Sunset: 4:10 PM GMT
[03:21] <Gr3yWOlf> .moon london uk
[03:21] <AmeliaEarhrt> London, United Kingdom — 11:22 AM GMT Updated: 11:22 AM GMT
[03:21] <AmeliaEarhrt> The moon is Waxing Crescent, 45% of moon illuminated.
[03:21] <DansLesFers> clever
[04:04] <Gr3yWOlf> .wz lagos ng
[04:04] <AmeliaEarhrt> Lagos, Nigeria — 1:05 PM WAT
[04:04] <AmeliaEarhrt> Temp: NR Humidity: NR (No Report)
[04:05] <AmeliaEarhrt> Conditions: No Report Wind: Calm
[04:05] <Gr3yWOlf> gosh the syntax is sooo fiddly :(
[04:05] <Robert-Tron> no news is good news
[04:05] <Robert-Tron> .wz 43221
[04:05] <AmeliaEarhrt> Columbus, Ohio — 7:06 AM EST Updated: 6:53 AM EST
[04:05] <AmeliaEarhrt> Temp: 37°F/3°C Windchill: 31°F/-1°C Humidity: 67%
[04:05] <AmeliaEarhrt> Conditions: Mostly Cloudy Wind: (South) 8mph/13kmh
[04:19] <Gr3yWOlf> .sun male mv
[04:19] <AmeliaEarhrt> Male, Maldives — 5:20 PM MVT Updated: 4:00 PM MVT
[04:19] <AmeliaEarhrt> Sunrise: 5:52 AM MVT Sunset: 5:48 PM MVT
[04:19] <Hiragana> gosh
[04:33] <JohnGuru> give them a new toy and they're happy for hours


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